Daiwa Open

[ryan123]

Just thought I would say good luck if anyone is fishing the Daiwa Open tomorrow. I hope the weather doesn't turn out as bad as it is supposed to be and if there is a nice NE sea running there should be a few Cod caught. (Hopefully by me) ;D

Tight Lines

[Deleted]

Good luck ryan mate. Especially with the weather, although she's not too bad as i type now lol ;D

[cookiemonster]

i heard a 7lb cod won it !!! its a decent size i suppose but the fishing has been pretty good on the coast and the humber is throwing some good fish up too at the moment so i thought it would of been a bit bigger but the weather was very bad

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2009 23:14:25 GMT cookiemonster said:

i heard a 7lb cod won it !!! its a decent size i suppose but the fishing has been pretty good on the coast and the humber is throwing some good fish up too at the moment so i thought it would of been a bit bigger but the weather was very bad

cookie you cannot count the fish you bought from the chippy ;D

Ajk

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2009 14:07:21 GMT @ajk said:

Nov 30, 2009 23:14:25 GMT cookiemonster said:

i heard a 7lb cod won it !!! its a decent size i suppose but the fishing has been pretty good on the coast and the humber is throwing some good fish up too at the moment so i thought it would of been a bit bigger but the weather was very bad

cookie you cannot count the fish you bought from the chippy ;D

Ajk

;D ;D .... Nice to hear of a proper 'Cod' instead of codling all the time. Doesn't look like i'll get back out again this season!

[ryan123]

That is a Codling!!!
Lat couple of years there have been doubles, and plenty of back up Cod in the high singles. 7lb is nothing for the amount of rods down the coast.
The weather was awful, sea - unfishable and the river - packed.

Result - Blank

[Deleted]

Anything over 6lb is a cod ryan, not a codling.

[Deleted]

I thought a codling was a young cod -trying to say how big it is is like saying how big a teenager is isn't it? or a jack pike for that matter. I don't think the terms mean to portray any degree of accuracy.

[Deleted]

Geoff and ryan, cod are classified thus. Anything below 6lb is a codling, or as geoff suggests, a young Cod. Anything above 6lb is a Cod. End of, that's how it is ;D

[ryan123]

I wasn't saying it isn't a Cod, I ts jjust in past years there have been miles bigger fish caught, last year there were Bass bigger than that.
Pretty sure a Codling is anything below 5lb?

just checked and that is correct!

[Deleted]

When does a puppy become a dog, a lamb a sheep, or when will I never be called young man (still happens at 58)? There are no fixed rules, which is just how I like life to be! Life turns more from black and white to several shades of grey when you get older dan!
geoff

[tommy1]

Yes, i've got to agree with you on that one geoff.

[naf]

Found this codling query intresting (bit like the pasty carp, chublets, bootlaces !) and found the below to be a more reasonable explanation : -

Codling is a term given to young cod (before they can reproduce). Based on typical growth rates a codling reaches sexual maturity at around 3 - 4 years and would be around 4lb but again location is a major factor in this....

[ryan123]

fair enough, now I know ;D

[Deleted]

So based on typical growth rates what is bill beaumonts lad - who he said was 6ft 5in and 17st as a 17 yr old. My point remains - don't try and pigeon hole nature - if you do it comes back and bites over time - i.e bb's son.
Variety is the spice of all life
geoff

[naf]

Dec 3, 2009 20:59:29 GMT @gcb said:

So based on typical growth rates what is bill beaumonts lad - who he said was 6ft 5in and 17st as a 17 yr old.

Not a codling ;D

I think the key statement in the quote for me Geoff was the ability to reproduce which as you say has very little to do with size, age etc and 'typical' is not representetive of all things in nature but purely based on an average...

Variety is definately the spice of life and thank god there's only one of each of us

[Deleted]

Cod get smaller by the year 10 years from now anything over 2lb will be a cod. Think I may have a go Sunday if weathers as bad as they say.

[Deleted]

Are you suggesting cod have stopped growing as they get older? - I don't think you mean that. If you mean there are less bigger fish is this because of the overfishing of the seas that we hear about or are you privvy to other scientific reports rather than heresay? Please let us know if you have recorded data.
geoff

[Deleted]

Geoff first time I went out on a boat from Whitby was on my 12th birthday 23 years ago. It was just a short 4 hour trip we had 2-3 Cod almost every single drop average size must have been about 12lb. This carried on for a couple of years and then after another 5 years I stopped going as the cod were smallest I had ever caught plus you were getting under 10 a trip. Now a double figure cod is classed as a good fish, off Whitby in the 80s it was 30lb+.

[Deleted]

Geoff i can go someway to explaining, rather simply.

Cod now, due to overfishing are maturing at a much younger age and size, to compensate for falls in numbers. Therefore what is occuring, is smaller cod are producing offspring that genetically don't have the strong genes that much larger cod of old had, when stocks were plentiful. Although, it has to be said, there are areas where large cod can be caught, which gives way to another theory, which i also believe in, which is that because of global warming a lot of the larger fish have moved north, to places such as the norweigen fjords. Double figure cod there are common place. Our shore waters are now warmer than what they may have been 10,15, 20 years ago, and cod are a fish liking of fairly cold conditions. So this would also explain why the bigger fish that are still about do not appear to frequent our costs anymore

[Deleted]

Geoff i can go someway to explaining, rather simply.

Cod now, due to overfishing are maturing at a much younger age and size, to compensate for falls in numbers. Therefore what is occuring, is smaller cod are producing offspring that genetically don't have the strong genes that much larger cod of old had, when stocks were plentiful. Although, it has to be said, there are areas where large cod can be caught, which gives way to another theory, which i also believe in, which is that because of global warming a lot of the larger fish have moved north, to places such as the norweigen fjords. Double figure cod there are common place. Our shore waters are now warmer than what they may have been 10,15, 20 years ago, and cod are a fish liking of fairly cold conditions. So this would also explain why the bigger fish that are still about do not appear to frequent our coasts anymore

[yorkiman]

Dan sorry to say you are dead wrong in your thinking, just look at fish that have been caught over the last 30 years in the UK and you will see it's due to over fishing by dragers, look at Iceland they have limited for years there fishing and close down parts that are not fishing too good, as for cold water and fish size is a load of c--p so is clobal warming, if it was true, our cod should be sizes of buses, a very big one is no more than a pound thats why we call em TOM COD...........

[Deleted]

Got to agree with yorkiman if commercial fishing was stopped for a few years we would start catching proper cod again. If it was global warming why are the small cod still here? you can't tell me that after 2 years they suddenly all swim north to grow big. Fact is they get scooped up and either sold or if too small slung back dead.

[Deleted]

Hehe, i revel in a good debate and i can prove to you that i am not wrong by elaborating deeply on my earlier post. I can throw several articles at you to back me up. Yorkiman, i am not dead wrong in my thinking, i am dead right, I think you'll find i have studied overfishing and the effects it can have on fish stocks and the effects of global warming on fish stocks and i have also studied it on my degree in Environmental Conservation this year, if i didn't know i was right, i wouldn't have posted.

Firstly, what is a drager? Do you mean Dredger? Cod fishermen use trawl nets first and foremost... but anyway, back to the lecture at hand.

Secondly, overfishing AND global warming are BOTH proven to be responsible for the decline in cod stocks.

The question is actually, A) is one more responsible than the other? Or are they both equal?
Or B) has one 'been' responsible, and the other now making things worse?

The answer is B.

Now i will elaborate.

Overfishing (From all angles not necassarily human)

It is a fact that overfishing has appeared to effect the numbers of Cod in the North sea and indeed the entire Northern Hemisphere to be fair. However this is the tip of the iceberg, you two don't know the full extent of. Overfishing has, simply been the first 'reason' for a decline in fish stocks, where we have exploited stocks by catching as much as was physically possible, with no limits.

Paul, you have very correctly mentioned that discard mortality rates are a massive contributing factor to the decline in cod stocks. In 2007 alone, a documented 8000 tones of cod were discarded dead, see this link scotland.wwf.org.uk/what_we_do/press_centre/?uNewsID=2340. That is the second 'reason' why cod stocks have declined. But this is amongst a chain other reasons that have come after.

Don't forget although Cod is an apex predator, it is prey itself, for not just humans. Aquatic Mammals, are the Third 'reason'. In particualr grey seals use them as a food source, the Grey Seal population in particular, making a 500,000 tonnes/Per annum dent, see this link www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1316611?UserKey=
These critters have exploded to such a high, with Cod 1st on their menu, that they have become ecologically unsustainable. Furthermore, this explosion is having a knock on effect on populations of other species of seal... due to competiton, but that's another subject. Do bear in mind, that this is without incorporating other mammals and all the seabirds that rely on them for food, or should i say 'relied' i.e. gannets. Plus piscivorous predation too. Tope and other British indiginous shark species will prey on them. Ohh and the Bluefin Tuna, but Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! They're knocking about again in small numbers.

So here is a key point.

MOTHER NATURE OVER 1000'S OF YEARS HAD DEPLETED THEM IN SUCH A WAY PROBABLY EQUIVALENT TO WHAT FISHERMAN HAVE IN MORE RECENT TIMES

So that's how the cod have been depleted through fishing.

Global warming

Global warming is definitley effecting the location, breeding and recruitment of cod. Sea temperatures have risen by 1 degree centigrade over the last 4 decades. Not a lot you may think, But it's enough. That 1 degree difference makes a massive difference. It has effected the whole ecology of the North Sea. This change in temeperature, has worked in unison with the effects of overfishing to reduce cod stocks as it has lead to a 60% decline in the amount of planktonic life in the North Sea, which young cod rely on. This decline has had a massive knock on effect on breeding success of Cod, thus a fall in recruitment levels. The specific plankton that has declined is what young cod rely on as fry and it is just not present at where the cod are breeding. In fact the concentrations of these specific copepods, have moved north by 1,200km, in to cooler, deeper water, but young cod NEED shallow areas, usually located on continental shelves, like the North sea and they cannot follow the plankton in to deeper water, therefore they are simply not surviving.
Here is the link to back all that up, on which there are points about how (which i mentioned) the whole ecology of the North Sea has been effected due to global warming. www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/6162167/North-Sea-cod-could-disappear-even-if-fishing-outlawed.html

Endocrine Distruptors

A lot of Cod and other whitefish or 'gadoids' have also suffered like freshwater fish in many rivers with 'Endocrine Distruptors'. These are chemicals, mainly oestrogenic, which are contained in trusty Urine of the Human Female as well as in substances such as 'the pill'. These chemicals are not removed when the water they are present in is treated at sewage works and water treatment plants, and is then released in to our water courses, then ultimatley the Sea.
These Chemicals have the unfortunate effect of upsetting genetics in fish, and it is now not uncommon to catch a cod, and find it with both male and female organs. These developments within the fish can often render the individuals infertile too, meaning some fish around our coastlines suffering with this cannot breed anyway. Which is another problem for the Cod.

Other Theories

On to the other bit i mentioned, which is a bit of a lesser known theory, that i have discussed with someone i know who runs and ecological group and she has worked on the North Sea fisheries on many different boats, and has seen it all first hand. Due to ALL of the above, cod have become smaller and have been reproducing at a younger age. Therefore it is more than a viable theory that the genetics of these fish are producing young that do not have the capability to grow as large as they used to. This combined with the difficulty cod are having breeding would explain the smaller numbers of smaller fish within the North sea and around our coasts.... why you ask are the small cod still here in small concentrations? REFER TO THE LINK AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GLOBAL WARMING SECTION FOR YOUR ANSWER

So all this above re-enforces why cod on average are smaller in the North sea and are less abundant.... it's not just because of overfishing. Theres a broader picture, much broader.
This link re-enforces my comment on the fact that the bigger cod ARE further north, concentrated around norway and beyond, as i had stated. >>> www.henry-gilbey.com/photo_essays/norway_cod_and_coalfish.html

They've not gone boys .... just moved and reduced.

Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post, and i hope that some eyes have been opened a little. I apologise for the length of it, but i had points to prove. I have used an hour of my own time to produce this post aswell, to help your understanding.

Regards,
Dan

[humhx]

Just because you have a degree or studying for one does not make you right. People and scholars at one time believed the earth was flat.

From 40 years experience of fishing these east coast marks, from shore, as a boat owner, as a hand on a trawler and paying customer i can say most of your arguement is total .

The decline started in the late 70's when overfishing was rife. The amount of fish taken was unsustainable. The trawlers never came in shore, (less than 30 miles) and took there catches from one of the four great migration routes of the fish which came into the North sea.

At that time 10lb Cod were common, pulling two up at a time was arm breaking so you fished with just one ripper and wrecking trips pulled up 30lb fish on just about every trip. This was the norm and 500lb boat catches common.

Then an explosion of factory fishing, for sandeels (Spanish) white fish (Cod, Haddock and Whiting for Russia) decimated the stocks in one season. If you thought the ship you went to see off Brid (Queen Mary or something) was big you want to see a ruski factory ship. They are enormous, they never go back into port and are at sea for 3-4 years at a time. I was taken aboard as guest on one, the fish are landed at one side, gutted, top and tailed and there is no waste. the fillets are used as fish meal, tinned for consumption and the guts for animal feed. Nothing is wasted. This left the local boats who fished with a dilema, land the Cod and have it as part of a quota or flog it to the Russians and be paid in cash.

Millions of tons were taken, everybody was at it, Us, the French, Spanish, Norwegians, Scottish and even the Icelandics (that was irony).

Local in shore boats got in on the act, getting as many fish as quickly as possible from in shore marks (less than 30 miles) with nets which were designed to scour the bottom fished pair style and dragged mile after mile up and down the coast.

This killed the crustaceons, (hermits, peeler) the main food sorce left so with the over fishing you were given a double whammy.
Ask any diver off the east coast what the bottom sea bed is like now.

This resulted in an explosion of Whiting, i have never caught Whiting as big as you get now, why because the Cod arn't there anymore to eat them.

Next time you are at Brid, Scarborough or Whitby, watch the trawlers landing fish. Most is barely over size and they have limited boxes. Its because it has been systermatically over fished and young immature fish are all that is left.

Do you not think if larger fish were available they would catch them?

[tommy1]

Think i'm going with humhx's thinking, much more feasable.

[Deleted]

It's a diverse subject. My argument is not wrong, nor is it total rubbish. I have used evidence from scientific studies to explain the diverse subject of the decline in cod, that does not just end with and revolve around overfishing, at all. All the above i've mentioned apart from the theory on the genetics are proven, by scientists around the world whose qualifications far exceed mine, and with a lot of respect Martin, far exceed your experience as a trawler hand and the knowledge you may have and indeed that I have. My Fauna ID and Ecology lecturer to name but one, who also, as i mentioned has years of experience on the north sea boats and fully agreed with my post.

If you'd have read my post (i suggest you maybe re-read it), and interpreted it properly, it was intended to explain a timeline of events, stating that firstly cod have declined firstly due to over fishing and in expansion to my post, the reasons you have also brought to light, which i did not include in mine to keep it a generalistic as possible.secondly stocks are now being further depleted because of global warming and a a few other more minor reasons, two examples of which i have given and that the fish present now around our shores and in the north sea are small and often undersize, and not at all numerous. The few, bigger fish that are left are further North, again in small numbers.

The answer to your question is no, because they are not there to be caught commercially. As i have stated in the post and above aswell as proved with photo evidence from catches this year, they are still present further north but much depleted numbers and can only be caught in small numbers on a select few marks, with rod and line.

Again, i would not have wasted an hour of my time, trying to prove to you that what i included in my post is all correct if it wasn't (with the exception on a more personal theory on genetics which i cannot prove correct, so i'll let that one go). I even took the time to reference it all, references that can't be argued with.

Alas and with respect again Martin, i understand why you think i may be wrong. But it's not me that's wrong if you so strongly believe it, it's the information, which is taken from proven scientific studies (apart from the genetics bit), so how can it be wrong?

I think the answer to that question, again with respect is that because of your far superior experience you simply won't acknowledge information if it is presented to you by someone, of 18 years of age, who will admit he is much less experienced in the industry than you.

The information (apart from the genetics) and the time line of events leading to the decline in cod stocks in the north sea that i posted, IS CORRECT.

Topic closed from me.
Dan.

[humhx]

Dan,
I understand what you are saying and the science, what i am telling you is a factual account of what has gone on in the North sea for the past 35 years.

I have witnessed this as i said from working on trawlers, owning a boat and pleasure perspectives, fishing and diving.

All you are trying to do is over complicate the reason for the decline, and no they are not still there and most certainly not located further north.

Most of the in shore marks are now unfishable and totally un divable due to the number of fouled nets on them.

They have also managed to ravage the crab potting marks which are wiped out by pair fishing as only a fraction of the eco system exists now exists.

Have you ever seen the damage a trawl can do to the bottom, i have.

[yorkiman]

Well said mate, some times past working knowledge needs to be accepted over science........p.s. very strage science, we have closed all commercial cod fishing around Newfoundland and guse what, the cod have started to come ( BACK ) some times science is humbug......

[Deleted]

I have seen the damage trawls can cause to the seabed, on underwater footage, and to some it up, it knackers up the habitat and ultimatley the ecosystem. Plus i am aware of the damage it can cause to other branches of the industry, such as that which you have mentioned.

Good scientific study cannot be approved nor conducted without factual evidence and first hand experienece, therefore your comment is obsolete yorkiman and it is that factual evidence Martin that has provided the scientists with research and conclusions.

I actually agree that i am 'complicating' (I'd prefer elaborating up on) the reason for the decline beyond just overfishing, as again that (and the damage it has cause to the environment) is the first set back the fish have had. Global warming is now building on it. That is all i have been tring to put accross and correctly so, because it is correct. The stocks have been wiped out because of overfishing and now they are struggling to recover due to the effects of global warming (re-refer and re-read the info link i gave in that section).

I will maintain that there are small numbers of larger cod (not as big as they used to get - But i'm talking over 20lbs maybe 30lbs) in norway, especially the fjords. Did you not look at the link of the pictures of fish caught this year from norway? They have still been catching them on rod and line. I would suggest though, that this is the last stronghold of the very few larger fish surviving. If they weren't there, Angling direct's Norweigen Cod fishing packages would not be offered and that part of the business would not be viable, so they wouldn't bother with it if the fish weren't there at all, so they clearly are on that evidence and the photographic evidence. In Just enough numbers to catch on rod and line for a select band of norweigen charters who know where they are. But not enough to make them viable again for the fishing industry, nowhere near.

Anyway, Yorkiman, on your last point i had also read that cod numbers had increased by 5% this year. I think this must clearly be due to the quotas and new rules on net sizes, allowing young cod to escape nets, so more fish are surviving capture unlike times of old, where everything died essentially. Some may even now be getting the opportunity to breed more successfully, elsewhere than in the north sea on another continental shelf where the Plankton the fry rely on are present, unlike in their age old North sea breeding grounds. It had been suggested that the Barents Sea could be a new area for them to re-establish.

This can only be a good thing and i think this may increase by similar margins per year, if the effort is maintained, but will be dependent upon if global warming further distrupts the breeding by warming the sea further.

Dan.