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Post by spooner on Jan 18, 2013 6:44:14 GMT
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Post by nightwatchman © on Jan 18, 2013 10:01:51 GMT
Good article. Just goes to show how devastating otters can be! Still cant get my head round why someone would want to introduce the furry critters in the first place?
Maybe this law suit will bring things to a head?
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Post by tyke66 on Jan 18, 2013 10:08:05 GMT
It's a shame that it has to come to this but I for one hope that this fella gets compensated for the loss of his livelihood. When will the powers that be learn that if you mess with nature, it comes back to bite you on the @ss. Things happen for a reason in nature - ie. lack of natural food = decrease in predator numbers - and we should not interfere with them.
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Post by Warden on Jan 18, 2013 10:13:14 GMT
think I will wait until after the court case before passing judgement when both sides have had their say,a lot of the article does not add up to me! 22000 fish eaten but no skeletons to show at his fishery no reported sightings at his place?by the person who was going to collect this £2-5 million of revenue he would have got all seems a bit fishy to me.
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Post by Kezzer on Jan 18, 2013 10:34:26 GMT
The recent bbc otter special programme, made no mention of otters being reintroduced, they highlighted that numbers of otters were on the increase, due to the fact the water quality in our river systems had improved greatly, because of pollution control measures, and also the fact that otter hunting has been banned for 30 years, therefore the species has been able to make a resurgence, with approximately 2000 otters living in the British isles. Personally I'd like to see documented evidence of the ea releasing otters, before we blame nature, which of course has done nothing wrong. It's also a well known fact that otters hardly eat any of the fish they kill, mainly just the fatty, fleshy part behind the gills, so the skeletons in the article aren't conjusive with an otter kill, the fishery owner in my opinion would have found dead fish, rather than just bones. As a carp angler, whose own club water has been affected by otters, I still feel the otter is getting blamed unfairly, it's up to us (the angling fraternity) to protect our hobby, not blame the otter, who has more right to be there than us, we live alongside nature, not the other way around .
Kezzer
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Post by bostonman on Jan 18, 2013 11:02:44 GMT
Geoff in France told me that Otters are protected over the channel as well. Strange thing is nobody ever sees one or appears to have a problem with them Must have something to do with the French lake owners not bowing down to pathetic legislation as we do in britain, oh yeah they often own a gun as well..............
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 14:05:59 GMT
Angling needs this case to be a success. It goes without saying that Otters will, given time ruin Angling. Along with Cormorants and Poachers too. I have said on many occasions in person and on forums (only to be ridiculed to my amazement) that predation in all its forms will ruin angling and in turn the tackle industry - which is a very large contributor in to the economy. Only those that have managed to fence will survive and at the moment, such fisheries are only an insignificant percentage. The conservationists are blinkered and do not see how serious it is. The EA are a bunch of idiots under the guise of a bigger bunch of idiots - you'll get more sense out of your living room wall. Warden - there were skeletons photographed at the fishery in the article. Other people elsewhere have said the same. But consider this - He's had to buy the land, develop it, buy the stock (which isn't cheap in iteslf - Stocking a fishery to the level he did would have cost £100's of thousands) all of which he has taken out a mortgage to do, which therefore carries interest in the long term. Consequently due to his fishery being emptied, all of that has been rendered worthless and he has been left in ruins as a consequence, so i can see where that figure has come from, i really can and it is very, very sad. Furthermore, this has happened to many more too. I sincerely hope he wins, as there is every chance he could. Infact i am quietly confident - and if he does succeed it will instigate a snowball effect If it doesn't, we will start to see more Fishery owners taking more action - especially those that do own a gun.
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Post by Jimmy Silverfish FULLA on Jan 18, 2013 14:38:49 GMT
It's as simple as this on this occasion I totally agree with carp fanatic, Stop being do gooders all ya life's and get ya head out the soil, I've seen the otter at its best take a prized carp, and for what a bite out of its head ?? It's worse than the fox that knacked 45 of my hens and took only one, There are crews now out and about burying these freaks of nature,,,, If you agree with otters doing this to our fish stocks then I'm sorry to say this but why do you own a fishing rod you should be looking through binoculars at the otter,,,, After all I don't spend £1000s each year to put an otter on the mat do you ?
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Post by drunkenmaster76 on Jan 18, 2013 15:00:52 GMT
I don't want to pour oil on this argument, but "freaks of nature"?? I have every sympathy with this chap and I am sure he was there before the otters, so good luck to his appeal. However going forward if fisheries are going to stock with 100+k of fish, then building a 20k fence should be one of their first outlays. I liken it to a jewellery shop - you wouldn't stock up with loads of merchandise without installing an alarm and security measures first. I think it may be a reality we all have to accept and learn to live with.
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Post by Jimmy Silverfish FULLA on Jan 18, 2013 15:29:48 GMT
Yes but in an ideal world you should be able to park key your car with keys in it You should be able to have a jewellery shop and leave just windows on show, What you should be saying is fuel to the fire lol And where will it end with what we've got to do to protect our property our sport and the rest of it, ,, I'm extremely old fashioned and come from a breed where we are top species domanant race and y should we let a silly otter spoil our sports lively hood ? That bloody otter along with the fox should be on my house floor as a cheep doormat, I'm sorry lads but your £27 a year in my case double that on fish licence should be spent on exactly that FISH and protection of fish lets have it right lads for crying out loud Go on the otter forum if you love them so much just a thought can't have it both ways :-) no offence to anyone hear just passing a strong view of mine
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Post by drunkenmaster76 on Jan 18, 2013 15:42:21 GMT
I think the days of leaving your front door unlocked are a bygone era and never to be seen again. As far as I can tell, we have done far more damage to rivers, lakes and the sea than any otters ever have. We are finally getting our act together, but lets try not to be too judgemental. Otters may waste the rest of the fish, but I was only reading this week that globally, half the food we produce is wasted.
Otters are an inconvenience to our sport I completely agree. They are highly developed predators. Once we have protected our fisheries, then there numbers stabilised, then this should surely be indicative of the health of our waterways? You fish knotsford and they have an otter fence - then surely that's problem solved for you?
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Post by Warden on Jan 18, 2013 16:37:09 GMT
Carpfanatic said "Warden - there were skeletons photographed at the fishery in the article." If you look at it again you will see the skeletons were from another fishery, he has lost 22,000 fish yet has to show skeletons from another fishery? How long did it take to eat 22,000 fish?with him doing nothing about it! if he has lost £2-5 million in revenue but could not be bothered to fence his fishery off,costing maybe ten grand?as I said seems to me more to it than is apparent to the public. anglingtrust.net/news.asp?section=29§ionTitle=News&page=3&itemid=1449The only organisation capable of doing anything about the Otter situation (but only if we give them the funding to do it)Join today
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Post by andyhornby on Jan 18, 2013 17:54:15 GMT
So has this taken 5 years to get to court?
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alarm
Banned User
Posts: 57
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Post by alarm on Jan 18, 2013 17:59:16 GMT
I have every sympathy with this chap and I am sure he was there before the otters, correct me if i'm wrong but otters are an indigenous species that have been around long before the fishery owner and much longer than the fish that were introduced as food for humans in the 1300's that he cares to fill his muddy puddle with. otters belong in this country whether you like it or not and carp are only food. if you really want to get rid of otters, fill in the overcrowded puddles where the food lives. simples! another thing you have to remember is you pay your license fee to the "environment agency" which is here to help the environment! it's not there to just look after the welfare of fishery owners and fish, it's the environment as a whole. do you really think that if the fishery owner wins this case it will help fishing? come you guys, there are loads of threads saying "where are the bailiffs" and "what is being done to stop pollution" etc. do you really think they are going to invest millions once they've lost £2.5 million in a court case? some of you lot really need to get a grip. incidentally, have any of you lot tried any of this introduced food that the otters are eating? IT'S DELICIOUS!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 18:05:47 GMT
I have every sympathy with this chap and I am sure he was there before the otters, correct me if i'm wrong but otters are an indigenous species that have been around long before the fishery owner and much longer than the fish that were introduced as food for humans in the 1300's that he cares to fill his muddy puddle with. otters belong in this country whether you like it or not and carp are only food. if you really want to get rid of otters, fill in the overcrowded puddles where the food lives. simples! another thing you have to remember is you pay your license fee to the "environment agency" which is here to help the environment! it's not there to just look after the welfare of fishery owners and fish, it's the environment as a whole. do you really think that if the fishery owner wins this case it will help fishing? come you guys, there are loads of threads saying "where are the bailiffs" and "what is being done to stop pollution" etc. do you really think they are going to invest millions once they've lost £2.5 million in a court case? some of you lot really need to get a grip. incidentally, have any of you lot tried any of this introduced food that the otters are eating? IT'S DELICIOUS!!!! Absolutely unbelievable This is another problem we have - it's not the first time i have read things like this from so called anglers. Alarm, you have completely missed the point and have come back with an absolutely flabbergasting response here....
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alarm
Banned User
Posts: 57
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Post by alarm on Jan 18, 2013 18:09:54 GMT
is this from the same carpfanatic who is on ncff forum and went to bishop burton to study fishery management? The EA are a bunch of idiots under the guise of a bigger bunch of idiots - you'll get more sense out of your living room wall. sounds like the perfect job for you mate alan
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Post by drunkenmaster76 on Jan 18, 2013 18:13:54 GMT
This is descending into silliness
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Post by spooner on Jan 18, 2013 18:43:32 GMT
Glad i posted this now its bean a good read lol
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Post by drunkenmaster76 on Jan 18, 2013 18:44:38 GMT
You stirrer ;-)
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Post by Kezzer on Jan 18, 2013 18:50:24 GMT
Some really good and worthwhile comments from drunkenmaster, and some rather concerning ones from jimmy, why can't you appreciate all nature ? The food chain is what it is, and just because we're at the top of it doesn't give us the right to exterminate something we see as a nuisance, that's ruining our hobby !
Alarm- if you've nothing constructive to say I suggest you keep quiet.
Kezzer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 19:16:29 GMT
This is descending into silliness I nearly wrote the same in my last post but i refrained. I thought the thread was amicable up until a few posts ago though. Now i have time (Tea called), lets re-wind - i hate feeling compelled to do this because i know it winds some folk up but here we go again correct me if i'm wrong but otters are an indigenous species that have been around long before the fishery owner and much longer than the fish that were introduced as food for humans in the 1300's that he cares to fill his muddy puddle with. otters belong in this country whether you like it or not and carp are only food. if you really want to get rid of otters, fill in the overcrowded puddles where the food lives. simples! another thing you have to remember is you pay your license fee to the "environment agency" which is here to help the environment! it's not there to just look after the welfare of fishery owners and fish, it's the environment as a whole. do you really think that if the fishery owner wins this case it will help fishing? come you guys, there are loads of threads saying "where are the bailiffs" and "what is being done to stop pollution" etc. do you really think they are going to invest millions once they've lost £2.5 million in a court case? some of you lot really need to get a grip. incidentally, have any of you lot tried any of this introduced food that the otters are eating? IT'S DELICIOUS!!!! You are correct, Otters are an indigenous species and yes they do have a right to be present on our water courses, however lets get a few things straight. Otters have been re-released in to a habitat that has changed - drastically. When Otters were abundant in years past, the habitat needed to sustain them and the food needed to sustain them was present. Re-releasing an animal in to a much changed habitat that cannot sustain them naturally is fundamentally wrong and is disrespectful to Otters as a species - Would you support the re-release of Wolves? The re-release of Otters is no different. An apex predator in a landscape with no natural food source. This is why we suffer predation on our fisheries - Were Eels still present in numbers of the past, it would be a much less prevelant issue. If we 'filled in' our pools and lakes, they would be forced on to natural wateways and then what? They would empty them too We pay our licence fees to the EA to maintain fisheries, not to go in to the general EA pot to be spent on any particular work the EA sees fit - Including the re-introduction of otters!!! Anglers want their dues paid on licenses to be put in to its own pot and spent fully on fisheries management and nothing else - this is how it should be. What is the point in us paying dues with no guarantee it will in turn be spent on us? We all know it isn't Otters (and other predators) ruin livelihoods because their natural habitat cannot sustain them naturally, hence why they predate on fisheries. If fisheries did not exsist, they would not survive This predation is a very real problem that is effecting the largest participation sport in this Country yet we have no say? Fisheries being emptied not only effects the fishery owners, but in turn the local tackle trade and localised tackle trades when added together contribute a massive amount to the economy - this is how serious it is. It's not scaremongering or if's and but's, it is very real Will it help fisheries if the case is won? Yes, absolutely. It would put the angling fraternity in a very strong position indeed because you cannot say yes to one and not others in the same situation. A victory for this guy in this case would be an absolute landmark, simple as that. As for your comment on 'introduced food' that Otters are eating It is not very good at all. I don't know who you are, but the vast, vast majority of us fish for sport and we do not encourage the capture of Coarse fish for food and nor should it be encouraged. I find this comment disturbing. Alarm- if you've nothing constructive to say I suggest you keep quiet. Kezzer Ditto. Regards, Dan P.S. If people disagree with the above then that is fair enough, what i have written is what i believe to be fact and people may not agree and barring silly stuff as we have just seen above i have no intention of ostracizing you for it
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Post by spooner on Jan 18, 2013 19:33:11 GMT
To put it bluntly I say shoot um !! If only are foreign friends liked to eat otter as much as they did carp and pike !!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 19:34:04 GMT
To put it bluntly I say shoot um !! If only are foreign friends liked to eat otter as much as they did carp and pike !! ...and now Swans, it would seem
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Post by Kezzer on Jan 18, 2013 19:59:11 GMT
Like I say, let's see documented evidence on the reintroduction of otters, who is breeding otters ? In my opinion no one
Kezzer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 20:12:20 GMT
...and rather co-incidently i have just learned sickening news that i dearly never wanted to hear.... several Carp have been killed at my beloved local Club water. Not sure which ones yet, but gutted is not the word. Only plus side is the weather - It can stay like this now for as long as it wants. If there's a lid on the pond, they wont get in To put it bluntly I say shoot um !! If only are foreign friends liked to eat otter as much as they did carp and pike !! I am sure they could be persuaded....
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Post by Jimmy Silverfish FULLA on Jan 19, 2013 13:37:12 GMT
Kezzer mate nothing should be concerning about what I say pal, I call a kettle a kettle and see things in black and white, 1. I like fishing all aspects of it, 2. I hate otters they give me no pleasure at all and there helping wipe fisheries out, 3. Yes it's ok to fence waters off we have one at Knotford a £20000 fence but it don't work for 1 idiots leave the gates open constantly just to annoy the bailiff there and 2 it's a fence my Great Dane could get under the gates and a rat could bite through the wire,,, And as for eating carp well pffft to that, your tastebuds must be as limited as your brain eh??? Lol They must taste horrid muddy and fatty right Otter pffft give me 1 or 2 reasons y they should stay what do they actually do for us ?? It's just an overgrown dog that swims, very well, Sorry if you disagree with me on this subject but when will you realise the damage they will cause in the long run Taking a15lb river barbel and 1 bite from it, sorry but it wants hung drawn and quartered
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Post by Warden on Jan 19, 2013 14:43:12 GMT
We do not live in a Black and White world and anyone with the views of Kill everything that interferes with what I want to do does more harm to our sport than a 1000 Otters,don't people realise that there are several groups out there that would like to see fishing banned and they visit (and indeed) post on our site regularly Any extreme views posted on websites will be used by these groups to great effect!what a gift for them! if you want to go the same way as Fox hunting then carry on public opinion is the most powerful force in the country and there is no quicker way to lose it than ranting about hating things saying we should kill them!!! If we wish to live in a civilized society then we must live accordingly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 14:51:24 GMT
Anti's on the site, that you know of? Am i missing something....
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Post by Warden on Jan 19, 2013 15:16:39 GMT
Perhaps slightly miss-worded I am sure antis visit most fishing websites (looking for anything they can use) I would if I was a "anti"and in fairness our site is one of the better ones for being less aggressive to each other and more friendly
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 15:54:56 GMT
Indeed, fair enough.
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